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Author: Subject: Defund? Dismantle the Police? WTF?

Extreme Peach





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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 05:59 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/what-is-defund-police-trnd/index.html

What does this mean to defund or dismantle police departments? Are they talking about re-organization?

Otherwise, the replacing police w/social services, mental health, education, & community police sounds like the dreamy utopia of 13-year-olds. When someone is assaulted, raped, or murdered, I wanted trained police officers on the scene to investigate & bring sufficient evidence to prosecutors to get a conviction at trial.

As to the rest of it, social services are underfunded as it is. What mental health professionals can actually do is limited & there aren't sufficient trained/certified mental health professionals to fill positions now much less when their workload is larger. At a school shooting, do we need mental health professionals or trained police?

Community policing sounds like code for corruption at best & vigilantes at worst. Just ask a public housing officer how effective he feels controlling the gangs & "protection hierarchy" in his territory.

If any public institution is going to be dismantled & rebuilt from the ground up, it should be education. COVID19 seems to have proven that some schools are nothing more than babysitting for parents to go to work w/test prep thrown in so there is the appearance of learning.

Anyone have a clue what defunding actually means? Why better training, better resource allocation, & stricter employment rules (e.g., not letting a copy w/17 excessive force complaints remain on board) aren't better choices?

 
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Peach Bud



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 06:40 AM
This was in the Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/07/defund-police-heres-what -that-really-means/


 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 06:47 AM
quote:
This was in the Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/07/defund-police-heres-what -that-really-means/


Thanks, but that's only available to subscribers. Cut & paste????

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 06:47 AM
In many large cities the local officials are signaling they plan to remove many millions of dollars from their police departments annual budget and shift that money to support benevolent programs for depressed and minority neighborhoods. And remove protections for police officers so it will be easier to sue a police officer for his or her treatment of you personally. And certain methods of restraining a person will be banned.

Minneapolis, Minnesota has announced they will defund and dismantle their police department and replace it with neighborhood watch saftey squads but this morning the mayor has decided it's a bad idea but he is receving heavy criticism for other city leaders and protesters.

Los Angeles plans to defund the LAPD and clip it's wings, deverting the money saved which is in the millions to minority neighborhoods to improve lives and living conditions.

But hold on! I won't post the video but anyone who is interested, go to YouTube and view one of the videos on the 1997 Bank of America bank robbery in North Hollywood where two long time criminals came in with high powered weapons with armour piercing bullets and out gunned the police in a spectacular hour long shoot out on the streets of Los Angeles killing and wounding police officers and citizens. I say retrain the police and remove tactics that could kill or severely injur someone being arrested, but don't defund. The bad guys will take advantage of soft spots they identify. And some school districts and universities are planning to kick the police off their campuses. The next school shooting will make that change regrettable.

I wouldn't live in a city without a well funded and equiped police department. Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?? Not me.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 07:06 AM
quote:
I wouldn't live in a city without a well funded and equiped police department. Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?? Not me.


Thanks for the explanation. At least it doesn't mean disbanding police altogether as what Minneapolis sounded like it wanted to do.

I still think the diversion of funds to social/community services is misguided. Anyone ever tried to get assistance for seniors? Sure, the city promises (& maybe has) all kinds of services, but the wait list is 2 years long, has absurd eligibility requirements, & the person at the other end of the phone yawns during your explanation/request. Ever called a suicide hotline (for "someone you know" as the PSA recommends) & been put on hold? Is throwing more money there going to stop crime? Or jerks like Chauvin? Certainly, examination & redeployment of police resources makes sense; transferring funds to another overburdened bureaucratic agency doesn't.

 

Peach Bud



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 07:35 AM
Sorry - here is the full article:

By Christy E. Lopez
June 7, 2020 at 6:37 p.m. EDT

Christy E. Lopez is a professor at Georgetown Law School and a co-director of the school’s Innovative Policing Program.

Since George Floyd’s death, a long-simmering movement for police abolition has become part of the national conversation, recast slightly as a call to “defund the police.” For activists, this conversation is long overdue. But for casual observers, this new direction may seem a bit disorienting — or even alarming.

Be not afraid. “Defunding the police” is not as scary (or even as radical) as it sounds, and engaging on this topic is necessary if we are going to achieve the kind of public safety we need. During my 25 years dedicated to police reform, including in places such as Ferguson, Mo., New Orleans and Chicago, it has become clear to me that “reform” is not enough. Making sure that police follow the rule of law is not enough. Even changing the laws is not enough.

To fix policing, we must first recognize how much we have come to over-rely on law enforcement. We turn to the police in situations where years of experience and common sense tell us that their involvement is unnecessary, and can make things worse. We ask police to take accident reports, respond to people who have overdosed and arrest, rather than cite, people who might have intentionally or not passed a counterfeit $20 bill. We call police to roust homeless people from corners and doorsteps, resolve verbal squabbles between family members and strangers alike, and arrest children for behavior that once would have been handled as a school disciplinary issue.


Police themselves often complain about having to “do too much,” including handling social problems for which they are ill-equipped. Some have been vocal about the need to decriminalize social problems and take police out of the equation. It is clear that we must reimagine the role they play in public safety.

Defunding and abolition probably mean something different from what you are thinking. For most proponents, “defunding the police” does not mean zeroing out budgets for public safety, and police abolition does not mean that police will disappear overnight — or perhaps ever. Defunding the police means shrinking the scope of police responsibilities and shifting most of what government does to keep us safe to entities that are better equipped to meet that need. It means investing more in mental-health care and housing, and expanding the use of community mediation and violence interruption programs.

Police abolition means reducing, with the vision of eventually eliminating, our reliance on policing to secure our public safety. It means recognizing that criminalizing addiction and poverty, making 10 million arrests per year and mass incarceration have not provided the public safety we want and never will. The “abolition” language is important because it reminds us that policing has been the primary vehicle for using violence to perpetuate the unjustified white control over the bodies and lives of black people that has been with us since slavery. That aspect of policing must be literally abolished.

Still, even as we try to shift resources from policing to programs that will better promote fairness and public safety, we must continue the work of police reform. We cannot stop regulating police conduct now because we hope someday to reduce or eliminate our reliance on policing. We must ban chokeholds and curb the use of no-knock warrants; we must train officers how to better respond to people in mental health crises, and we must teach officers to be guardians, not warriors, to intervene to prevent misconduct and to understand and appreciate the communities they serve.

Why must we work on parallel tracks? First, all police will not be defunded or abolished anytime soon, and we cannot wait to make changes that will save lives and reduce policing harm now. Experienced advocates know this. This is why, for example, Campaign Zero just launched the #8cantwait campaign, which urges law enforcement agencies to immediately adopt eight use of force reforms, even as it continues its divest/invest strategy to end police killings.

More fundamentally, we must continue with reforms because abolition doesn’t go far enough. Policing didn’t invent America’s institutionalized racism, social inequity or stereotyped masculinity: Policing harms are a product of these broader pathologies. If we were to get rid of policing tomorrow, those pathologies would remain. And they would continue to be deadly: Race bias in our health-care system has likely killed far more African Americans and Latinx via covid-19 than the police have this year. Successful police reforms help us learn how to identify and mitigate the harms of these structural features, even as we work to remake them.

In this moment, we have a chance to make not just policing, but our entire country, fairer and safer. We must think creatively and educate ourselves. We must ask hard questions and demand answers about public safety budgets.

We should have unflinching debates about when, where and how to seek police reforms instead of defunding. But we should move forward on both tracks so that we can save lives even as we transform the police.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 08:57 AM
quote:
Sorry - here is the full article:

By Christy E. Lopez
June 7, 2020 at 6:37 p.m. EDT


Thanks. Very reassuring. I had the impression re the Minneapolis City Council that they were, indeed, planning to eliminate the police force overnight with their veto-proof supermajority.

Sorry, but community policing makes me think of the George Zimmermans of the world - roaming neighborhoods w/loaded guns & hot tempers.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 09:09 AM
Ms Lopez is wrong. So someone determined to live on your porch and block your door, you don't call the police and have the trespassers removed, you go out and offer them love and food and drink and financial support or talk them into moving to a nice shelter paid for money shifted from police budgets?

This lady is WRONG!!! The criminals of all races and stripes with quickly identify these soft spots in our cities and crime and murder will run rampant.

We must have strong and well trained and budgeted police departments. Training and perception of people's station in life need to be reworked ONLY. This lady wants to decriminalize much behavior and respond to it with money, compassion and a helping hand. That won't work. I will need to call the police to remove the man living on my porch and demanding I feed and cloth him. But when the police arrive, rather than throwing the man up against the squad car and taking him to jail, take him to a place funded by taxpayers that will give him treatment and food and hopefully put him back on the street later as a man healed and headed to a job they helped him get. .



[Edited on 6/8/2020 by blackey]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 09:53 AM
Defunding = disbanding. No one is going to show up for work if they don't get a check. The biggest hurdle will be about pension liabilities. I'm guessing the courts will get involved at some point in all this.

My initial take after hearing all the talk of defunding was that this was a very reactionary response and one that likely won't have legs.

But after listening to a good report on NPR this morning hearing from the Minneapolis activists influencing city council members to vote the way they did, I am more open to the possibility than before. That community has experienced a series of George Floyd-esque incidents, and claims to have tried every reform possible but none of it has worked. This is what it has come to.

They claim to have analyzed every 911 call and determined that the large majority of citizens' requests for police help can be addressed with means other than police intervention. I can think of several examples like what others here have mentioned that couldn't possibly be addressed WITHOUT trained police but am curious to see what they come up with. There's just a ton of questions that remain to be answered and it sounds like City Council has a year to come up with a proposal.

Every community is different and I don't think there's gonna be a one size fits all solution.






 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 10:06 AM
It is the stupidest idea going. Just flat out insane. Yeah this would be just so great without police. It is bad enough with them. But I guess these black lives don't matter?

18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago



https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murde r-history-homicide-police-crime

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 11:58 AM
Agent Orange is on the ropes and this proposal is a lifeline. Doesn't anybody know how to play this game?

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 12:03 PM
quote:
Agent Orange is on the ropes and this proposal is a lifeline. Doesn't anybody know how to play this game?


I told a friend the other day this talk is one of the kind of things that Dems do to f up an all but sure thing. You watch as this stuff will backfire BADLY on the left. So the answer to your question is no they do not know how to play the game and nobody hitches their wegons to a losing horse better than the modern Democratic party.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 01:48 PM
I don't know the intention of defunding or even exactly what that entails. Seems like the kind of idea that will create a surge in gun sales to folks who probably shouldn't have them. People are liable to perceive this as an outright elimination of police forces and arm themselves for personal protection. It just sounds kinda drastic.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 02:22 PM
quote:
I don't know the intention of defunding or even exactly what that entails. Seems like the kind of idea that will create a surge in gun sales to folks who probably shouldn't have them. People are liable to perceive this as an outright elimination of police forces and arm themselves for personal protection. It just sounds kinda drastic.


If you have not seen this some of these folks are dead serious. Mayor got booed out of a rally for indicating he would not do that.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/minneapolis-mayor-police-abolition/index. html


 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 02:44 PM
quote:
That community has experienced a series of George Floyd-esque incidents, and claims to have tried every reform possible but none of it has worked.

I posed the question because I, too, wondered how cities would function w/o police forces. [I get that towns w/a 4-person force can turn their operations over to the county.] I now know this has been an academic theory for a while, but as I said in my original post, it still sounds like something some idealistic 13 yr olds dreamed up.

Minneapolis can't have tried every reform possible if they 1) sent an excessive 4 officers to the scene of a reported forgery and 2) 2 of those 4 officers had excessive forced complaints. Everything hasn't been tried if they haven't kicked off an officer w/17-18 complaints and another w/5, including being a defendant in a lawsuit that cost the city $25,000 & a man serious injuries.

Re-routing funds from the police to social services actually makes the most vulnerable even more vulnerable. I don't want a mental health worker to show up when domestic or child abuse is reported. I want a well-trained cop who has the authority to make an arrest & investigate sufficiently to successfully prosecute the abuser.

I agree w/your original conclusion - this doesn't have legs.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 03:01 PM
Not to bend or hijack the thread, but perhaps re-training and re-tooling to approach to policing is due.
In Japan, they use tactics like "throw nets" on unruly people. Just toss a net over them and let them exhaust themselves.

I honestly believe that the majority of teachers, Catholic priests and police officers are stand-up professionals. I support these. In one of Richard Pryor's concert movies, he talked about filming "Stir Crazy" (with Gene Wilder) in a prison. I forget how he set the comment up, but he mentioned some of the hard-core inmates: "Be GLAD they got penitentiaries!"

Edited: many mispelled words and bent train of thought - thanks to this mornings hernia surgery. Be GLAD they got pain med's, too!



[Edited on 6/8/2020 by Rusty]

 

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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 03:26 PM
Last Week Tonight With John Oliver

Defund the Police? An Explanation.

https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 04:41 PM
Saw the title of the thread, had to laugh. Nothing like drama.

Sad to see so many boomers and boomerspawn fawning over
The Man and worshipping The Sh*tsem as if all of the best
rock n roll never happened. On a music site no less.
But I digress.

Love to know how many hippies are now FoxNewsWorshippers and TrumpFappers




 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 04:48 PM
quote:
Saw the title of the thread, had to laugh. Nothing like drama.

Sad to see so many boomers and boomerspawn fawning over
The Man and worshipping The Sh*tsem as if all of the best
rock n roll never happened. On a music site no less.
But I digress.

Love to know how many hippies are now FoxNewsWorshippers and TrumpFappers






If you think cyclone88 who started the thread is a Trump supporter you are not very good at graspng reality.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 05:27 PM
When I first heard the term Defund the Police department my response was huh????

Then I read about what is trying to be accomplished. Certainly, we need cops to fight crime, etc. We don't need them for lots of other things they are asked to do. It's good to think about these things.

they should come up with another name, though. The title is just candy for the right

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 05:44 PM
quote:
they should come up with another name, though. The title is just candy for the right

Agreed. Now that I know it's not abolishing the police force in favor of civilian social workers et al, it needs a more appropriate slogan.

I also know I'm out of touch when it comes to anything but the NYPD in terms of what's required of cops. I'm used to NYPD plus transit, public housing, environmental, park, health/hospital & homeless services police. Obviously, not every city has a police force plus separate entities for specific purposes.

 

Peach Head



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 09:56 AM
quote:
It is the stupidest idea going. Just flat out insane. Yeah this would be just so great without police. It is bad enough with them. But I guess these black lives don't matter?

18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago



https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murde r-history-homicide-police-crime


Who murdered these unfortunate people?

[Edited on 6/10/2020 by Wis608]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 10:10 AM
quote:
they should come up with another name, though

Definitely. It's jarring every time I see a legit news article about it. Just because protesters are holding signs that read "Defund the Police" doesn't mean it should be recounted as that in the media (yes, I know media wants to sell). If it needs to be short & catchy, try Reform the Police, Revise, Retrain, Detox, something that doesn't make it sound like police are going to be abolished.



 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 10:14 AM
quote:
quote:
they should come up with another name, though

Definitely. It's jarring every time I see a legit news article about it. Just because protesters are holding signs that read "Defund the Police" doesn't mean it should be recounted as that in the media (yes, I know media wants to sell). If it needs to be short & catchy, try Reform the Police, Revise, Retrain, Detox, something that doesn't make it sound like police are going to be abolished.





Agree.

The first time I saw that nomenclature I knew it was not accurate. Definitely needs a change as the terminology is teribly misrepresented.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 10:33 AM
My son's brother in law is a Boston cop. He says there was one bad night in Boston during the protests. Now, he says, the protesters are all from out of town. One minute the protesters are screaming at the police to "Defund the Police", and a half hour later, the same protesters are asking the cops for directions.
I think peaceful, protesting is good and needed. With that comes the yahoos that want to start trouble by looting and vandalizing. I guess this is the cost of freedom.

 

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