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Author: Subject: Thousand Oaks terror attack

Peach Extraordinaire





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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 11:29 AM
PTSD, irrational, irate, and violence - all terms used to describe the shooter by those who knew him. Yet he buys a gun legally. A mental health professional was called apparently, but determined custody wasnít needed. Maybe custody wasnít a possibility but surely he couldíve been diagnosed as unfit to purchase a gun by the authorities.


quote:
Sheriff Geoff Dean said his department had had several interactions with Long, including a call to his home in April for a complaint of disturbing the peace. Deputies at the time said Long was irate and acting irrationally, Dean said. They called in mental health professionals to evaluate him, and they concluded he did not need to be taken into custody.

In the neighborhood where Long lived, residents said they were well aware of his problems.
Richard Berge, 77, said the former Marine had PTSD and was known to kick in the walls of the home. Long lived with his mother, Berge said.

ďSheís a very sweet woman, but she had a lot of problems with the son,Ē Berge said. ďI just know he tore the house up.Ē

Long was dressed in black when he burst into the Borderline Bar & Grill, a country-music-themed venue popular with college students, around 11:20 p.m. He drove his motherís car to the bar and did not say anything before opening fire, a law enforcement official said.


The shooter was armed with a Glock 21 .45-caliber handgun with an extended magazine that he purchased legally in Simi Valley, Dean said. A source said he also had a ďsmoke device.Ē

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 12:03 PM
This is and continues to be very sad....

Once again, in every media outlet that is reporting on this horrific incident, the Shooters name is included in the first sentence.

Why this fascination with the gunman's identity?

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 12:15 PM
Sad. I hope they can at least get these families some answers soon. Apparently the authororities didnít seem to think there was any danger even after these incidents they had with the guy.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 12:21 PM
quote:
Sad. I hope they can at least get these families some answers soon. Apparently the authororities didnít seem to think there was any danger even after these incidents they had with the guy.


I think this is one of the inherent difficulties we have being a free society. Do we lock people up with "Mental health issues" because some professional has determined you are "not right"? Obviously there was something very wrong with this guy and he fell through the cracks....The ultimate catch 22

 

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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 12:59 PM
I donít know about this particular person but sociopaths in general have a way of appearing completely normal and harmless when they need to. I did see one report that said PTSD issues were brought up. As BIGV mentions above, when there hasnít been a crime or intent to do harm established, what are the standards that a professional can use? It does seem that it would ultimately come down to educated guess work.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 01:21 PM
quote:
As BIGV mentions above, when there hasnít been a crime or intent to do harm established, what are the standards that a professional can use? It does seem that it would ultimately come down to educated guess work.


Not exactly. It wouldnít be a perfect science but there are very effective ways to identifying these types. In fact, all our police departments have mental exams for recruits. If they donít pass, they canít be a cop. These exams successfully weeded out someone I know to be bipolar, who tried to be a cop in NYC, Baltimore, and Philadelphia. All three cities denied this person for the same reason - failing the mental exam. These same exams should be given to anyone wanting to buy a firearm. If our cops see a need for them to protect their own departments, the surely they are needed for society as well.

As for the health professional and cops who examined this guy, it seems logical that they couldnít find a reason to detain him - being irate and irrational isnít a crime. But surely there should be a protocol in place for putting this guy on a no-buy list.

Gun ownership should be merit-based IMO. Every American can own firearms IF they demonstrate mental and physical competency and knowledge first. Being 18 or 21 shouldnít be the only requirement.

Itís just another example of a deranged individual, who never saw a doctor, and therefore allowed to buy a gun in the U.S. - unacceptable!!!

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 02:12 PM
quote:
PTSD, irrational, irate, and violence - all terms used to describe the shooter by those who knew him. Yet he buys a gun legally. A mental health professional was called apparently, but determined custody wasnít needed. Maybe custody wasnít a possibility but surely he couldíve been diagnosed as unfit to purchase a gun by the authorities.


quote:
Sheriff Geoff Dean said his department had had several interactions with Long, including a call to his home in April for a complaint of disturbing the peace. Deputies at the time said Long was irate and acting irrationally, Dean said. They called in mental health professionals to evaluate him, and they concluded he did not need to be taken into custody.

In the neighborhood where Long lived, residents said they were well aware of his problems.
Richard Berge, 77, said the former Marine had PTSD and was known to kick in the walls of the home. Long lived with his mother, Berge said.

ďSheís a very sweet woman, but she had a lot of problems with the son,Ē Berge said. ďI just know he tore the house up.Ē

Long was dressed in black when he burst into the Borderline Bar & Grill, a country-music-themed venue popular with college students, around 11:20 p.m. He drove his motherís car to the bar and did not say anything before opening fire, a law enforcement official said.


The shooter was armed with a Glock 21 .45-caliber handgun with an extended magazine that he purchased legally in Simi Valley, Dean said. A source said he also had a ďsmoke device.Ē


i watched the entire interview of Sheriff Dean this morning on BBC One. Dean said the handgun was a Glock 21 in 45 caliber, which is legal, 10 round magazine and one in the chamber, and it is possible that he used an extended magazine, but we don't know yet. Note: this was a live interview at 11:00 am today. Since the shooting happened after 11 pm last night, I'm fairly sure that if he used an extended magazine, the Sheriff would have known by now.
Witnesses have said that he did eject a magazine and reload.

[Edited on 11/8/2018 by Jerry]

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 03:34 PM
quote:
quote:
As BIGV mentions above, when there hasnít been a crime or intent to do harm established, what are the standards that a professional can use? It does seem that it would ultimately come down to educated guess work.


Not exactly. It wouldnít be a perfect science but there are very effective ways to identifying these types. In fact, all our police departments have mental exams for recruits. If they donít pass, they canít be a cop. These exams successfully weeded out someone I know to be bipolar, who tried to be a cop in NYC, Baltimore, and Philadelphia. All three cities denied this person for the same reason - failing the mental exam. These same exams should be given to anyone wanting to buy a firearm. If our cops see a need for them to protect their own departments, the surely they are needed for society as well.

As for the health professional and cops who examined this guy, it seems logical that they couldnít find a reason to detain him - being irate and irrational isnít a crime. But surely there should be a protocol in place for putting this guy on a no-buy list.

Gun ownership should be merit-based IMO. Every American can own firearms IF they demonstrate mental and physical competency and knowledge first. Being 18 or 21 shouldnít be the only requirement.

Itís just another example of a deranged individual, who never saw a doctor, and therefore allowed to buy a gun in the U.S. - unacceptable!!!


You're exactly right. Being irate isn't a crime or a mental health problem. It's an emotion. So far, a 77-yr old neighbor (who is not the shooter's doctor) said the guy suffered from PTSD. That's gossip.

The professional standards are well known to trained professionals - is a person a danger to themselves or others at the moment of the exam? If the person is, he goes on a 72-hour psych hold. Beyond that, he's released unless a judge - not a doc - determines he's not ok & a competency hearing is scheduled. People aren't held against their will unless they've been charged/convicted of a crime or adjudicated to be incompetent.

IMO, "mental illness" encompasses too much to be a useful category for effective gun control. Half of the US has xanax, valium, anti-depressants, & adderall in their medicine cabinets to treat some form of "mental illness."

What we DO know is that certain types of mental illness are directly linked to violent acts. This guy was in the Marines from about ages 19-23 & was in Afghanistan. We KNOW some people who served in certain hotspots come back w/PTSD that can be treated, but are they screened & followed medically? As you said, professionals can detect diagnosable conditions so why isn't the VA (or the DOD or whoever is in charge of Marines) following up these young men who're given a weapon, taught to shoot, thrown into a danger zone, & then, after their stint is up, assumed to be unaffected?

Even PTSD is too broad a category - victims of violent crimes, including rape, often have a PTSD diagnosis. So far, I don't think a single rape victim has become a mass shooter.


[Edited on 11/8/2018 by cyclone88]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 04:49 PM
quote:
I donít know about this particular person but sociopaths in general have a way of appearing completely normal and harmless when they need to. I did see one report that said PTSD issues were brought up. As BIGV mentions above, when there hasnít been a crime or intent to do harm established, what are the standards that a professional can use? It does seem that it would ultimately come down to educated guess work.


How do you know that he is a sociopath?

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 06:15 PM
My first sentence states that I donít. I was just offering a possibility as to how he got by the authorities that had been called and apparently didnít see a problem.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 06:26 PM
quote:
My first sentence states that I donít. I was just offering a possibility as to how he got by the authorities that had been called and apparently didnít see a problem.


Yep. It's never a problem until after it became a problem. A guy with a gun who never should have had one. Just another week and another mass shooting - has become normalized & should shock no one. What has our society come to?

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 07:55 PM

Being in a state of perpetual war (almost 2 decades) does not help keep our focus on vets well being or treatment.

 

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  posted on 11/8/2018 at 08:36 PM
quote:
Being in a state of perpetual war (almost 2 decades) does not help keep our focus on vets well being or treatment


For sure man.

 

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  posted on 11/9/2018 at 09:40 AM
Republicans have been focusing on "Mental Health Solutions" to prevent these incidents FOR YEARS NOW.

Why no results?

 

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  posted on 11/9/2018 at 10:21 AM
quote:
Gun ownership should be merit-based IMO. Every American can own firearms IF they demonstrate mental and physical competency and knowledge first. Being 18 or 21 shouldnít be the only requirement.



Fair enough and "do-able". What step is next when a criminal or someone with an obvious mental issue acquires a firearm Illegally and a heinous act like the one above takes place?

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/9/2018 at 03:01 PM
If we implement a merit-based system, and a way for people like this to be put on a no-buy list, then at least we are doing what we can to reduce the amount and frequency of these attacks, because it surely would decrease them. Buying a gun on the black market isnít quick and easy, and therefore creates extra time and difficulty, for the possibility of being deterred. And the knowledge and competency checks would most likely ID an unstable individual who would have to go through a more thorough screening process before getting a buy permit. We need a way to ID the red flag individuals.
 

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  posted on 11/9/2018 at 07:41 PM
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We need a way to ID the red flag individuals.


Yes we do. More data in the system and more restrictions for those individuals.

Like you said, black market is always there, just because anything can be had illegally isn't a case to make those things easier and more accessible legally. I feel the same way with drugs.

It is harder for many people to go through black market / back alley channels than it is to walk into a store. Like me, I mean yeah, I could buy a gun with a filed off serial number or I could go and buy heroin, but I don't really know the people to go through for that, so it would take me some time and effort to do that. That is a barrier that tests their commitment. If the perp is committed to fulfilling their plan, they will go to whatever ends necessary. If we are dealing with someone who is up and down emotionally and wakes up one day wanting to kill people and the next day are glad they didn't then if more barriers were in that person's way it might mean we stop some deaths.

 

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  posted on 11/9/2018 at 08:47 PM
quote:
quote:
We need a way to ID the red flag individuals.


Yes we do. More data in the system and more restrictions for those individuals.

Like you said, black market is always there, just because anything can be had illegally isn't a case to make those things easier and more accessible legally. I feel the same way with drugs.

It is harder for many people to go through black market / back alley channels than it is to walk into a store. Like me, I mean yeah, I could buy a gun with a filed off serial number or I could go and buy heroin, but I don't really know the people to go through for that, so it would take me some time and effort to do that. That is a barrier that tests their commitment. If the perp is committed to fulfilling their plan, they will go to whatever ends necessary. If we are dealing with someone who is up and down emotionally and wakes up one day wanting to kill people and the next day are glad they didn't then if more barriers were in that person's way it might mean we stop some deaths.


Plus if somebody decides to go to the blackmarket it opens up the possibility of them being caught in a sting operation. A lot of terror suspects and murders for hire have been stopped that way.


 

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  posted on 11/10/2018 at 03:27 PM
It's gotten to the point.........the very SAD point.............that we are going to have to go through a metal detector to enter any nightclub, concert........ANY entertainment gathering, ANY event where a large bunch of folks meet. I know some will say this is impractical but I think at a minimum for entry to any sporting event or concert this needs to happen, and soon. Think of the cost to the school to place metal detectors at every entry point for a college football game. Well, if they have to charge more to get in, I will gladly pay it for some piece of mind.

I was never more shocked when attending a San Jose State football game last year. It was ONE week after the Vegas massacre, and they did not as much as even look inside of my backpack when I entered!!!!
SOOOOOOOOO.........just what are you saying here, University board of trustees? I don't look suspicious so I'm OK? REALLY?

 

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  posted on 11/10/2018 at 04:47 PM
quote:
Plus if somebody decides to go to the black-market


Well, I would guess that this is how the absolute majority of criminals acquire hand guns. And since these shootings in public places continue to happen, the deplorables who act out in this way, sadly, will always find a way...

 

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  posted on 11/10/2018 at 09:28 PM
quote:
quote:
Plus if somebody decides to go to the black-market


Well, I would guess that this is how the absolute majority of criminals acquire hand guns. And since these shootings in public places continue to happen, the deplorables who act out in this way, sadly, will always find a way...


I can't remember any of the well publicized mass shootings being conducted by criminals who obtained their weapons on the blackmarket, can you? Seems like all were legally obtained.

 

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  posted on 11/11/2018 at 12:14 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Plus if somebody decides to go to the black-market


Well, I would guess that this is how the absolute majority of criminals acquire hand guns. And since these shootings in public places continue to happen, the deplorables who act out in this way, sadly, will always find a way...


I can't remember any of the well publicized mass shootings being conducted by criminals who obtained their weapons on the blackmarket, can you? Seems like all were legally obtained.


Right.

Your average bugler, thug, gang member, drug dealer, thief, whatever...yeah these people live in and among this 'black market' we are talking about and will have access to a variety of weapons to obtain outside of the normal legal purchase/transfer channels our laws govern.

On the other hand, we have people who up until they killed somebody were not a criminal, some appeared to just normal people in society. They did not have to seek illegal or alternative means to obtain their weapon of choice - like 2112 says, these mass shootings the weapons were bought and owned legally.

 

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  posted on 11/11/2018 at 12:18 AM
So if more inputs go into the screening process we have a greater chance at rejecting the wrong people from legally buying guns and force them into other means which would 1) make it more difficult for them and 2) like 2112 says potentially have them get caught in that process of illegally buying a gun.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/11/2018 at 04:14 PM
quote:
It's gotten to the point.........the very SAD point.............that we are going to have to go through a metal detector to enter any nightclub, concert........ANY entertainment gathering, ANY event where a large bunch of folks meet. I know some will say this is impractical but I think at a minimum for entry to any sporting event or concert this needs to happen, and soon. Think of the cost to the school to place metal detectors at every entry point for a college football game. Well, if they have to charge more to get in, I will gladly pay it for some piece of mind.




The most recent shooter shot the doorman OUTSIDE the club before entering.

Metal detector wouldn't have done anything here.

 

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  posted on 11/11/2018 at 05:27 PM
quote:
Your average bugler


Besides, the metal detector would pick up the bugle too, might get away with just showing the bugle and sneaking the gun in.


 
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