Thread: 'Multiple casualties' in shooting at Pittsburgh synagogue

LeglizHemp - 10/27/2018 at 03:35 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/27/us/pittsburgh-synagogue-active-shooter/index .html


BIGV - 10/27/2018 at 04:22 PM

My first thought is and has always been, "What in the Hell is wrong with people"?


BrerRabbit - 10/27/2018 at 04:43 PM

I read the news today oh boy


pops42 - 10/27/2018 at 05:13 PM

Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


sckeys - 10/27/2018 at 05:16 PM

Hey America, let’s debate gun laws and the death penalty for a bit and this will be old news by Friday. Dang I hate to put it that way but that’s what I’ve heard so far. Thanks to whoever it was on cnn a few minutes ago who turned the conversation to being respectful of victims.
This is so sad. I feel for these folks.


cyclone88 - 10/27/2018 at 05:25 PM

quote:
I read the news today oh boy


1967 seems so quaint now. Prescient.


BrerRabbit - 10/27/2018 at 05:30 PM

I'm getting pretty numb. It is disturbing to me that these atrocities don't rip my heart out like they used to. Will say, watch out everyone, this movie is coming to a theater near you. People are losing it - just yesterday a truck raced up past me force cut me off, would have sideswiped me if I hadn't slammed brakes, nearly got rear ended by another maniac who was tailgating. It's turning into Road Warrior.


cyclone88 - 10/27/2018 at 05:44 PM

What seems to have changed to me is that the shooters no longer kill themselves. It's almost like they want to stay alive & experience some weird heroic effects of what they've accomplished.


lukester420 - 10/27/2018 at 05:49 PM

quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.

True but it will be the typical bs from the WH and the supporters. They won’t say a word about guns or Trumps hate speech it will be the usual, “this is a mental health issue not a gun or divisive fascist in the WH issue”

That excuse is getting old


cyclone88 - 10/27/2018 at 06:20 PM

quote:
True but it will be the typical bs from the WH and the supporters. They won’t say a word about guns or Trumps hate speech it will be the usual, “this is a mental health issue not a gun or divisive fascist in the WH issue”

That excuse is getting old


Just heard "the synagogue should've had armed guards" which is a new one. Blame the victims, of course, is not.


jkeller - 10/27/2018 at 06:28 PM

quote:
quote:
True but it will be the typical bs from the WH and the supporters. They won’t say a word about guns or Trumps hate speech it will be the usual, “this is a mental health issue not a gun or divisive fascist in the WH issue”

That excuse is getting old


Just heard "the synagogue should've had armed guards" which is a new one. Blame the victims, of course, is not.


Four police officers were injured, but sure, an armed security officer would have prevented this.


sckeys - 10/27/2018 at 06:33 PM

quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


I sincerely hope not.

I just have a hard time putting this in his lap. At some point there has to be responsibility for ones own actions. IF, and this is pure if, this guy is like the bomb nut, even if President Trump stood in his kitchen and made outrageous remarks, it was this man who planned and carried out this crime. Allegedly.


lukester420 - 10/27/2018 at 07:34 PM

quote:
quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


I sincerely hope not.

I just have a hard time putting this in his lap. At some point there has to be responsibility for ones own actions. IF, and this is pure if, this guy is like the bomb nut, even if President Trump stood in his kitchen and made outrageous remarks, it was this man who planned and carried out this crime. Allegedly.

So at what point do we put ANY personal responsibility on Trump? I mean come on, this guy has take no personal responsibilities for a single action in his life.
So typical to blame it on one “deranged individual”. Who is the wack job in the Oval Office empowering these types with his message? If you continue to deny that Trump’s actions and words empower the right wing terrorists who run over people in Charlottesville, beat people of color protesting at his rallies, shoot people at synagogues and attempt to intidmidate democratic voters then you are either delusional or you just don’t care that we have a wannabe fascist dictator leading our country.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by lukester420]


stormyrider - 10/27/2018 at 08:10 PM

This is sickening as an American and a Jew. The FBI has confirmed what I already suspected, there are more hate crimes against Jews than any other religious group. And, they are increasing
As all of the xenophobia has been unfolding since January '17, I always said that we would be next. We are. It's here.

Yes, Trump condemned it. But his vitriol, his stance in Charlottesville, has enabled it. His promoting of violence in general (complementing body slamming reporters, encouraging protesters at his rallies to be beaten up, allowing the shouting of Jew-S-A at his rallies) only emboldens these people on the fringes.

This isn't, or shouldn't be, Republican against Democrat (although protests from the GOP are too few and too soft). It's about Trump's lack of morals and, as lukester said, the fact he is a wannabe dicatator.

The sad thing is that every day we are getting closer to it. Every day. It's sickening.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by stormyrider]


MartinD28 - 10/27/2018 at 08:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


I sincerely hope not.

I just have a hard time putting this in his lap. At some point there has to be responsibility for ones own actions. IF, and this is pure if, this guy is like the bomb nut, even if President Trump stood in his kitchen and made outrageous remarks, it was this man who planned and carried out this crime. Allegedly.

So at what point do we put ANY personal responsibility on Trump? I mean come on, this guy has take no personal responsibilities for a single action in his life.
So typical to blame it on one “deranged individual”. Who is the wack job in the Oval Office empowering these types with his message? If you continue to deny that Trump’s actions and words empower the right wing terrorists who run over people in Charlottesville, beat people of color protesting at his rallies, shoot people at synagogues and attempt to intidmidate democratic voters then you are either delusional or you just don’t care that we have a wannabe fascist dictator leading our country.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by lukester420]


I agree 100%, but you'll even find those in the WP who preach individual responsibility and will give Trump a pass on anything and everything. In my lifetime, I've never seen a president behave and speak like Trump does. It's unconscionable.


lukester420 - 10/27/2018 at 08:45 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


I sincerely hope not.

I just have a hard time putting this in his lap. At some point there has to be responsibility for ones own actions. IF, and this is pure if, this guy is like the bomb nut, even if President Trump stood in his kitchen and made outrageous remarks, it was this man who planned and carried out this crime. Allegedly.

So at what point do we put ANY personal responsibility on Trump? I mean come on, this guy has take no personal responsibilities for a single action in his life.
So typical to blame it on one “deranged individual”. Who is the wack job in the Oval Office empowering these types with his message? If you continue to deny that Trump’s actions and words empower the right wing terrorists who run over people in Charlottesville, beat people of color protesting at his rallies, shoot people at synagogues and attempt to intidmidate democratic voters then you are either delusional or you just don’t care that we have a wannabe fascist dictator leading our country.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by lukester420]


I agree 100%, but you'll even find those in the WP who preach individual responsibility and will give Trump a pass on anything and everything. In my lifetime, I've never seen a president behave and speak like Trump does. It's unconscionable.


Pretty reprehensible, just teaches our young that if you’re born wealthy you are indeed, above the law.


sckeys - 10/27/2018 at 09:03 PM

I wasn’t saying that the president helped matters. I’m saying that when someone takes the time to build an explosive or load a weapon with the intent of harm and even then can stop, but chooses to proceed. At that point it’s not Trump, a video game, or fairies with boots who is to blame for pulling a trigger.
The most irresponsible statement that the president has ever made was the 2nd amendment/Hillary Clinton comment on the campaign trail. He couldn’t have came any closer to outright suggesting harm.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by sckeys]


MartinD28 - 10/27/2018 at 09:25 PM

quote:
I wasn’t saying that the president helped matters. I’m saying that when someone takes the time to build an explosive or load a weapon with the intent of harm and even then can stop, but chooses to proceed. At that point it’s not Trump, a video game, or fairies with boots who is to blame for pulling a trigger.
The most irresponsible statement that the president has ever made was the 2nd amendment/Hillary Clinton comment on the campaign trail. He couldn’t have came any closer to outright suggesting harm.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by sckeys]


No one has a problem with you, keys. All good. Your posts are thought out and not impulsive or reactionary.

The one point to bring out that seems to be with commonality between the bomber wannabe from Florida and today's shooter is that we live in an era with so much media exposure that there are individuals that hang on to the bombastic words voiced by say a Donald Trump, Hannity, Rush, or conspiracy theories advanced. It doesn't take much to push these individuals over the edge.

The footprints of individuals identified and their social media presence shows much in common with alt right, hate groups, or things Trump has said as his go to points.


BrerRabbit - 10/27/2018 at 10:08 PM

quote:
the 2nd amendment/Hillary Clinton comment


What was the comment? I must have missed that particular pearl of the necklace of wisdom he has bestowed upon America.


MartinD28 - 10/27/2018 at 10:53 PM

quote:
quote:
the 2nd amendment/Hillary Clinton comment


What was the comment? I must have missed that particular pearl of the necklace of wisdom he has bestowed upon America.


Trump's soul is full of clams.


cyclone88 - 10/27/2018 at 10:58 PM

quote:

No one has a problem with you, keys. All good. Your posts are thought out and not impulsive or reactionary.

The one point to bring out that seems to be with commonality between the bomber wannabe from Florida and today's shooter is that we live in an era with so much media exposure that there are individuals that hang on to the bombastic words voiced by say a Donald Trump, Hannity, Rush, or conspiracy theories advanced. It doesn't take much to push these individuals over the edge.

The footprints of individuals identified and their social media presence shows much in common with alt right, hate groups, or things Trump has said as his go to points.


Good point that the commonality is SM not one individual. In these very early stages of investigation, it appears that Bowers in Pittsburgh was obsessed w/the approaching caravan & had made anti-Trump statements. Both are disenfranchised middle-aged men who find social groups online that reinforce the rhetoric of famous personalities & all they have to do is hit "like" or retweet & they've expressed an opinion, made connections, & have "friends" that they don't have in real life. Both inexplicably grew from following to opining to acting.

Socially, neither man had anything to lose by acting. Staying alive rather than killing themselves as what has happened with mass murderers/domestic terrorists in the past indicates to me that they're expecting praise from somewhere. They probably think their SM "friends" will call them heroes.


sckeys - 10/27/2018 at 11:27 PM

From the last report I’ve seen this guys capacity for hate was quite large. It seems too that he would freely give his hate to both parties.

People like this will in fact get the spotlite and praise from some that they seek. I remember the unabomber got his voice heard and has ambitions to write a book. Rudolph has a fan base and platform online. I’ve read his book and there’s a lot of “liberal media” and “Clinton” peppered throughout. That is kind of what I was going for in my other posts. These people always find someone to blame for their actions. Rudolph was a perfect person until liberals and tho he didn’t say but it wasn’t hard, blacks, seemed to have wronged him.
These groups soon found something to fire them up after losing Bill Clinton, Muslims and immigration. I remember President Bush trying to damper that.
Obama got elected and they went hog wild. Enemy num 1 of the alt right.


sckeys - 10/27/2018 at 11:42 PM

quote:
quote:
the 2nd amendment/Hillary Clinton comment


What was the comment? I must have missed that particular pearl of the necklace of wisdom he has bestowed upon America.


I’ll look for time and place but I remember the comment. It was in the campaign and he said that if she won, she would pick judges and there was nothing they could do about it. Then he turns a bit and says “I don’t know, maybe you 2nd amendment folks” and trails off. As someone who happens to believe in responsible ownership I was floored. I just can’t see anybody, let alone running for that office, encouraging people in such ways because something doesn’t go their way.

Edit- it was Aug 9, 2016 in Wilmington NC.

[Edited on 10/27/2018 by sckeys]


BrerRabbit - 10/27/2018 at 11:58 PM

Pretty chilling.


BIGV - 10/28/2018 at 12:57 AM

quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


jkeller - 10/28/2018 at 01:11 AM

quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


I disagree. Every country in the world has people with mental problems. Only this country has many mass shootings. Why? Are American people with mental problems more dangerous than those in other countries? No. The problem is the ease of access to guns that only exists in this country.


BIGV - 10/28/2018 at 01:37 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


I disagree. Every country in the world has people with mental problems. Only this country has many mass shootings. Why? Are American people with mental problems more dangerous than those in other countries? No. The problem is the ease of access to guns that only exists in this country.


Disagree. We do not take mental Health (or the lack of services) seriously. Add to that, our paradigm must change. When these things happen, how long does it take the media to report on the shooter?..His name, interviews with people he attended H.S. with, all have a memory to share with the media, who gladly report it. Who cares?...Evidently, the public is just "dying" to know. I would call that an issue, a Major one and you know what? It goes to this society and the things we deem important. You want to see things change?..How about we start by hanging these people?..How about lighting up the phones lines to your Congressman with the anger you feel toward the imbecile that did the shooting? Until we start holding the criminal responsible and Not the weapon, not a thing will change.


pops42 - 10/28/2018 at 01:54 AM

quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.

https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-20 18-2

[Edited on 10/28/2018 by pops42]


BIGV - 10/28/2018 at 02:19 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.

https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-20 18-2

[Edited on 10/28/2018 by pops42]


Switzerland?...Really?.....


jkeller - 10/28/2018 at 03:26 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


I disagree. Every country in the world has people with mental problems. Only this country has many mass shootings. Why? Are American people with mental problems more dangerous than those in other countries? No. The problem is the ease of access to guns that only exists in this country.


Disagree. We do not take mental Health (or the lack of services) seriously. Add to that, our paradigm must change. When these things happen, how long does it take the media to report on the shooter?..His name, interviews with people he attended H.S. with, all have a memory to share with the media, who gladly report it. Who cares?...Evidently, the public is just "dying" to know. I would call that an issue, a Major one and you know what? It goes to this society and the things we deem important. You want to see things change?..How about we start by hanging these people?..How about lighting up the phones lines to your Congressman with the anger you feel toward the imbecile that did the shooting? Until we start holding the criminal responsible and Not the weapon, not a thing will change.


Most mass killers are either killed by police or commit suicide. The threat of hanging will be no detriment to people who do not expect to live. As for reporting on the shooters friend, family, coworkers or whoever, that has no effect on any shooting as it already happened. Ignoring the ease with which people can obtain and own guns will never solve the problem. A problem that only exists in this gun crazed country.


lukester420 - 10/28/2018 at 04:44 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


I disagree. Every country in the world has people with mental problems. Only this country has many mass shootings. Why? Are American people with mental problems more dangerous than those in other countries? No. The problem is the ease of access to guns that only exists in this country.


Disagree. We do not take mental Health (or the lack of services) seriously. Add to that, our paradigm must change. When these things happen, how long does it take the media to report on the shooter?..His name, interviews with people he attended H.S. with, all have a memory to share with the media, who gladly report it. Who cares?...Evidently, the public is just "dying" to know. I would call that an issue, a Major one and you know what? It goes to this society and the things we deem important. You want to see things change?..How about we start by hanging these people?..How about lighting up the phones lines to your Congressman with the anger you feel toward the imbecile that did the shooting? Until we start holding the criminal responsible and Not the weapon, not a thing will change.


Most mass killers are either killed by police or commit suicide. The threat of hanging will be no detriment to people who do not expect to live. As for reporting on the shooters friend, family, coworkers or whoever, that has no effect on any shooting as it already happened. Ignoring the ease with which people can obtain and own guns will never solve the problem. A problem that only exists in this gun crazed country.

Our gun crazed country with a fascist holding the highest office.


BIGV - 10/28/2018 at 01:55 PM

quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


Every country in the world has people with mental problems.


The Tsarnaev's.....Mental Health issue?...or is there a "Bomb problem"?

Either the issue is murder or the means used to achieve it.


MartinD28 - 10/28/2018 at 02:27 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
“this is a mental health issue”


That is exactly what this is. What kind of sane person does this kind of thing?

To consistently blame guns, all the while shouting “we need more Laws”, is getting old.


I disagree. Every country in the world has people with mental problems. Only this country has many mass shootings. Why? Are American people with mental problems more dangerous than those in other countries? No. The problem is the ease of access to guns that only exists in this country.


Disagree. We do not take mental Health (or the lack of services) seriously. Add to that, our paradigm must change. When these things happen, how long does it take the media to report on the shooter?..His name, interviews with people he attended H.S. with, all have a memory to share with the media, who gladly report it. Who cares?...Evidently, the public is just "dying" to know. I would call that an issue, a Major one and you know what? It goes to this society and the things we deem important. You want to see things change?..How about we start by hanging these people?..How about lighting up the phones lines to your Congressman with the anger you feel toward the imbecile that did the shooting? Until we start holding the criminal responsible and Not the weapon, not a thing will change.


Most mass killers are either killed by police or commit suicide. The threat of hanging will be no detriment to people who do not expect to live. As for reporting on the shooters friend, family, coworkers or whoever, that has no effect on any shooting as it already happened. Ignoring the ease with which people can obtain and own guns will never solve the problem. A problem that only exists in this gun crazed country.

Our gun crazed country with a fascist holding the highest office.


I believe we as a country have more guns per capita than any other country of the world. In proportion to this is the number of gun related murders. Doesn't that seem logical? We're told that the answer is to arm churches, synagogues, schools, etc. The answer is always more guns. Yep, that will deter. Even Wayne LaPierre of the NRA said the answer is to arm more good people. The fall back is mental health. If we could just help all the mentally unstable people, we can beat this problem. That all makes sense. We produce more guns, arm more people, help the mentally challenged, and we'll all live happily ever after. All good.


BrerRabbit - 10/28/2018 at 03:07 PM

Be honest. More guns equals more shooting. Don't try to deny that because you defend the second amendment.

Of course it is a mental health issue - this entire country is loaded to the gills on psych meds. That is only going to increase. I am convinced that these "weird" massacres are SSRI-related, in the majority of occurrences.

Every prescription for SSRI should require seizure of all weaponry, down to slingshots, with weekly verification.. Won't be a silver bullet cure, my bet is immediate drop of over fifty percent. The gang related shooting stats won't change - that is a separate issue and cause. I'm referring to the whacko "senseless" events.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You want to take mind-altering pills, fine, but then you get a radio metal detector locked to your ankle to protect the rest of us.




BIGV - 10/28/2018 at 03:12 PM

quote:
The answer is always more guns.


In this Republic and the value we place on Liberty, that solution beats the Hell out of "We need more Laws"


quote:
The fall back is mental health.


I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue

quote:
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.


Let's see Switzerland has 8.7 million people and the USA has roughly 325 million......Factor in education, history, health and now tell me that was a relevant comparison.


jkeller - 10/28/2018 at 04:09 PM

If mental issues are the main problem behind mass shootings, how do we stop them? Let's look at the guy in Pittsburgh yesterday. Did he have mental health issues? If so, they were unknown. If you want to use his social media posts and the hatred he spewed on them, you now have to look at everyone who acts like that. Remember Charlottesville? Remember the chant "Jews will not replace us"? Did all of them have mental health issues? Should they be allowed to buy guns? The answer is far deeper than just mental health issues. Guns are the biggest problem and the ease of which anyone can obtain them.


MartinD28 - 10/28/2018 at 04:26 PM

quote:

I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue




And these are the people most easily preyed upon & likely to act upon targets amped up bombastic rhetoric such as anti-antisemitism, anti-immigration, and racism. They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.

Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


sckeys - 10/28/2018 at 04:26 PM

I grew up in an area that’s full of both churches and guns. The idea of guards is new as I remember the church I went to had 4 unlocked doors during services. I don’t understand why a country that is so abundant can’t do more on what is clearly a poor mental health system. I’m no fire breathing gun supporter but I do believe in a person having the chance to be on equal footing when in harms way. Firearms, love em or not, are a part of that equation now.


BrerRabbit - 10/28/2018 at 04:54 PM

quote:
If you want to use his social media posts and the hatred he spewed on them, you now have to look at everyone who acts like that.


Squeaky wheel gets the grease.


lukester420 - 10/28/2018 at 06:29 PM

quote:
If mental issues are the main problem behind mass shootings, how do we stop them? Let's look at the guy in Pittsburgh yesterday. Did he have mental health issues? If so, they were unknown. If you want to use his social media posts and the hatred he spewed on them, you now have to look at everyone who acts like that. Remember Charlottesville? Remember the chant "Jews will not replace us"? Did all of them have mental health issues? Should they be allowed to buy guns? The answer is far deeper than just mental health issues. Guns are the biggest problem and the ease of which anyone can obtain them.


Thank you. I did not intend to make this another gun control thread and overshadow the growing xenophobia problem, unfortunately I guess it’s at the core of this


BrerRabbit - 10/28/2018 at 06:41 PM

quote:
Did all of them have mental health issues?


Yes.

quote:
Should they be allowed to buy guns?


No.



cyclone88 - 10/28/2018 at 07:37 PM

quote:
If mental issues are the main problem behind mass shootings, how do we stop them? Let's look at the guy in Pittsburgh yesterday. Did he have mental health issues? If so, they were unknown. If you want to use his social media posts and the hatred he spewed on them, you now have to look at everyone who acts like that. Remember Charlottesville? Remember the chant "Jews will not replace us"? Did all of them have mental health issues? Should they be allowed to buy guns? The answer is far deeper than just mental health issues. Guns are the biggest problem and the ease of which anyone can obtain them.


Anger & hate are not mental health issues. One is an emotion & the other is learned behavior. Anti-Semitism & racism (against anyone different) have not been extinguished for thousands of years. The belief that anyone "other" is a threat to be destroyed is being perpetuated & others are buying into it for some unfathomable reason.

I'm 100% for gun control & better access to mental health treatment for those with diagnosable illnesses. However, mail bombs & mailed toxic substances aren't guns & being an angry white man isn't an identifiable medical illness for which there is a treatment. Not Guilty by Reason of Mental Illness/Insanity pleas are successful less than 1% at trial no matter how heinous the crime.

The only common denominator I see in any recent mass killings is low economic status. Hopeless young men (Dylan Roof) & middle-aged guys who once went to college but fell out of the mainstream (Cesar Sayoc) allied themselves w/groups who made them feel they were not responsible for their situations - it was someone else's fault. Blame-shifting.

BTW, I think taking things down a notch in all aspects of life is a good thing. I noticed the platform Disqus - often used for reality TV show discussions - has now added "Be Kind" to its tag line when posters sign in.








BrerRabbit - 10/28/2018 at 07:55 PM

It is possible that social media has created more isolation and an amplification of the "little voices" that send these killers over the edge.


MartinD28 - 10/28/2018 at 09:00 PM

quote:
It is possible that social media has created more isolation and an amplification of the "little voices" that send these killers over the edge.


Absolutely. They can hide behind a computer screen and become part of hate groups or movements of destruction all the while feeling empowered.


2112 - 10/28/2018 at 11:18 PM

I find it so ironic that whenever their is a mass shooting the right screams that it is a mental health issue and not a gun issue, yet one of the first things that the GOP and Trump did after Trump took office was to pass a law making it easier for mentally ill people to buy guns. Plus, the cut funding for mental health services every chance they get. If they want to blame mental illness, they sure don't seem at all concerned with it.


cyclone88 - 10/28/2018 at 11:40 PM

quote:
quote:
It is possible that social media has created more isolation and an amplification of the "little voices" that send these killers over the edge.


Absolutely. They can hide behind a computer screen and become part of hate groups or movements of destruction all the while feeling empowered.


X2. Almost no effort is required to become part of a SM group but the return of being accepted is huge. New members are accepted w/a click. Message/misinformation of the day, including cartoons & gifs, is spread w/a single "like" or retweet.


OriginalGoober - 10/29/2018 at 12:20 AM

Mental health is a growing problem


porkchopbob - 10/29/2018 at 12:48 AM

quote:
Mental health is a growing problem



It is so incredibly wrong for including this in this discussion, you're so off here that I'm not sure if you're actually joking.

First, diagnosis of Autism has increased, not Autism itself. The understanding of Autism is relatively recent, only the past few decades, and it was often diagnosed as other disorders. Therefor, as it is more understood, diagnosis has increased.

Second, Autism does not cause racism, hate, anti-Semitism, nor the type of mental disorder that leads one to shoot other people. If you'd like to read more about it I'd be happy to send you some links.




BrerRabbit - 10/29/2018 at 01:04 AM

This is where the no personal attacks thing becomes a challenge.


cyclone88 - 10/29/2018 at 01:25 AM

quote:
This is where the no personal attacks thing becomes a challenge.


Indeed, not that I want to make one because it's easier to ignore.

[Edited on 10/29/2018 by cyclone88]

[Edited on 10/29/2018 by cyclone88]


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 02:47 AM

quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 02:48 AM

quote:
This is where the no personal attacks thing becomes a challenge.


Because people disagree with your view?


BrerRabbit - 10/29/2018 at 02:59 AM

No, not at all, that never bothers me, honest.- I was zippin my lip on my reaction to the autism chart.


MartinD28 - 10/29/2018 at 12:10 PM

quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 12:38 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


2112 - 10/29/2018 at 05:20 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


2112 - 10/29/2018 at 05:21 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


jkeller - 10/29/2018 at 05:24 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.

Agree. And bin Laden wasn't flying those planes on 9/11.


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 05:44 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


I believe Manson was convicted of both, first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Keyword here is, Conspiracy


The_Newt - 10/29/2018 at 05:51 PM

quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.

This crazy guy Robert Bowers that shot all of those people at the temple, apparently did not vote for, like, or support President Donald Trump.

I saw screenshots of his social media page where Robert Bowers wrote this himself.

Neo-Nazis-even the ones in European countries and the ones in North America in the United States and Canada, who are all in extreme minorities and only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population even of small European countries, do not like Donald Trump because he likes Jews, completely supports Israel, has Jewish family members, and they feel he is too far left or a leftist/globalist.

Also, neo-nazis have always been around ever since the end of WW II, and are not some new phenomenon or coming out of the woodwork or having people join them-even in European countries or in North America.

I first saw evidence and actual neo-nazis in different European countries, and regions of Europe, and the United States and Canada in the late 1990s and very early 2000s during the Clinton years.




[Edited on 10/29/2018 by The_Newt]


2112 - 10/29/2018 at 08:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


I believe Manson was convicted of both, first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Keyword here is, Conspiracy


Ok, but when does a conspiracy become a conspiracy? Seems like whipping up a frenzy at campaign rallies when you are not even up for election might qualify. Screaming that any free press that is the slightest bit critical of you is the enemy of the people, and then your followers target that same press seems to fit the bill of conspiracy.


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 08:50 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


I believe Manson was convicted of both, first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Keyword here is, Conspiracy


Ok, but when does a conspiracy become a conspiracy? Seems like whipping up a frenzy at campaign rallies when you are not even up for election might qualify. Screaming that any free press that is the slightest bit critical of you is the enemy of the people, and then your followers target that same press seems to fit the bill of conspiracy.


Comparing a political rally attended by thousands that is taped or filmed for whatever future purpose, Imho, is hardly in the same ballpark as 5 deranged people, led by a certified lunatic, sitting around a table plotting someone's death and then carrying it out in cold blood.


2112 - 10/29/2018 at 09:02 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
[They just need a reason to go off. When a president overtly speaks this at rallies and subtlety implies this as well, he is a lighting the candle for these mentally unstable types. Add in all of the social media language & reposting / retweeting, and it's a formula for bad things to happen.


So, sounds like you are saying it is the Presidents fault

quote:
Am I blaming all of this on Trump? No. On the other hand his rallies, his rhetoric, his willingness to speak / imply violence, and his tweets cannot be dismissed as catalysts and contributing factors. I can't remember a president who over spoke and used his pulpit in such a way anywhere near the extent as Trump.


So, which is it? The President's fault? Yes or No?


Evidently you didn't understand the post. To answer your "yes" or "no' question - It is not a binary choice. The first line of the 2nd paragraph stated, "Am I blaming all of this on Trump?" The key word here is "all". I even went as far as to say "no". Let me add this - I do believe Trump doesn't get a free pass and is complicit in actions like these.


We disagree here, I don't think "Binary" has anything whatsoever to do with it. There is no "Kind of" or "sort of" either you are ultimately responsible for your actions or you are not.


I disagree. Charles Manson never actually murdered anyone. Should he not have not had to face punishment? He only encouraged violence. I guess only those who physically killed someone should be held responsible for those actions.


I believe Manson was convicted of both, first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Keyword here is, Conspiracy


Ok, but when does a conspiracy become a conspiracy? Seems like whipping up a frenzy at campaign rallies when you are not even up for election might qualify. Screaming that any free press that is the slightest bit critical of you is the enemy of the people, and then your followers target that same press seems to fit the bill of conspiracy.


Comparing a political rally attended by thousands that is taped or filmed for whatever future purpose, Imho, is hardly in the same ballpark as 5 deranged people, led by a certified lunatic, sitting around a table plotting someone's death and then carrying it out in cold blood.


So suggesting violence in front of thousands is ok, but in a small group setting is bad? Well, ok then...


KCJimmy - 10/29/2018 at 09:14 PM

quote:
So suggesting violence in front of thousands is ok, but in a small group setting is bad? Well, ok then...
Really? A jury was convinced that Manson instructed others to kill. Do you think there is proof anywhere that Trump instructed anyone to kill? If you believe Trump is guilty of causing this crime then how do you deal with "When they are down we kick them"? or (and I paraphrase here, We can't be civil until we are back in power. or how about, "Get up in their faces..." You know, if you act like a dumbass people are going to start treating you as such.


BIGV - 10/29/2018 at 09:35 PM

quote:
So suggesting violence in front of thousands is ok


Does this scenario adequately describe a Conspiracy?

quote:
but in a small group setting is bad? Well, ok then...


This small group conspired to commit murder and then followed through


pops42 - 10/29/2018 at 09:37 PM

quote:
quote:
The answer is always more guns.


In this Republic and the value we place on Liberty, that solution beats the Hell out of "We need more Laws"


quote:
The fall back is mental health.


I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue

quote:
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.


Let's see Switzerland has 8.7 million people and the USA has roughly 325 million......Factor in education, history, health and now tell me that was a relevant comparison.
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.


KCJimmy - 10/29/2018 at 09:56 PM

quote:
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.
They also don't allow same sex marriage. Prostitution and assisted suicide are legal though. Maybe you want to consider going there if you like their laws so well.


pops42 - 10/29/2018 at 10:00 PM

quote:
quote:
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.
They also don't allow same sex marriage. Prostitution and assisted suicide are legal though. Maybe you want to consider going there if you like their laws so well.
I guess this post goes above your comprehension?, no surprise!


BrerRabbit - 10/29/2018 at 10:01 PM

Prostitutes assist you with suicide in Switzerland? I'm there.


KCJimmy - 10/29/2018 at 10:05 PM

quote:
Prostitutes assist you with suicide in Switzerland? I'm there.
I hadn't done the math myself but now that you mention it... Might be a good place to retire. Permanently!


Bhawk - 10/29/2018 at 10:08 PM

quote:
quote:
So suggesting violence in front of thousands is ok, but in a small group setting is bad? Well, ok then...
Really? A jury was convinced that Manson instructed others to kill. Do you think there is proof anywhere that Trump instructed anyone to kill? If you believe Trump is guilty of causing this crime then how do you deal with "When they are down we kick them"? or (and I paraphrase here, We can't be civil until we are back in power. or how about, "Get up in their faces..." You know, if you act like a dumbass people are going to start treating you as such.


Civility from liberals. Is that what you all want? Highly doubtful.

The division is a good thing. More should embrace it.


pops42 - 10/29/2018 at 10:18 PM

quote:
quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.

This crazy guy Robert Bowers that shot all of those people at the temple, apparently did not vote for, like, or support President Donald Trump.

I saw screenshots of his social media page where Robert Bowers wrote this himself.

Neo-Nazis-even the ones in European countries and the ones in North America in the United States and Canada, who are all in extreme minorities and only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population even of small European countries, do not like Donald Trump because he likes Jews, completely supports Israel, has Jewish family members, and they feel he is too far left or a leftist/globalist.

Also, neo-nazis have always been around ever since the end of WW II, and are not some new phenomenon or coming out of the woodwork or having people join them-even in European countries or in North America.

I first saw evidence and actual neo-nazis in different European countries, and regions of Europe, and the United States and Canada in the late 1990s and very early 2000s during the Clinton years.




[Edited on 10/29/2018 by The_Newt]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83WsgVnIQ8k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e3T3VHmEkg

[Edited on 10/29/2018 by pops42]


BrerRabbit - 10/29/2018 at 10:22 PM

I could think of worse ways to go.


sckeys - 10/29/2018 at 10:32 PM

[

Civility from liberals. Is that what you all want? Highly doubtful.

The division is a good thing. More should embrace it.




Why such a broad brush?


The_Newt - 10/30/2018 at 10:56 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The answer is always more guns.


In this Republic and the value we place on Liberty, that solution beats the Hell out of "We need more Laws"


quote:
The fall back is mental health.


I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue

quote:
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.


Let's see Switzerland has 8.7 million people and the USA has roughly 325 million......Factor in education, history, health and now tell me that was a relevant comparison.
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.


If someone really wants to get a gun in Switzerland, or in any other European country, they easily can on the black market there or in any number of nearby European countries.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20180614/swiss-police-logistics-chief-suspected-of- illegal-arms-sales

In comparison to other European countries, Switzerland has a high rate of death from guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_ra te

Also, while many people think that various European countries must be very liberal/leftist because they have decriminalized/legalized prostitution and decriminalized/legalized/socially tolerated soft drugs like hash and weed, and Psilocybin mushrooms, the governments and people of these countries are actually rather conservative politically and socially.

Neo-Nazi and extremely far right nationalist-neo-fascist political groups, and social attitudes are also very popular in Switzerland, and gaining popularity especially among younger people, and older people as well in many other European countries. However, this should not be a surprise to anyone as it's been this way for decades. No this does not mean that most people in these countries are neo-nazis, support neo-nazi groups, etc. It's like here in the United States where there's a very tiny percentage of the population that consists of neo-nazis.

[Edited on 10/30/2018 by The_Newt]

[Edited on 10/30/2018 by The_Newt]


The_Newt - 10/30/2018 at 11:31 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.

This crazy guy Robert Bowers that shot all of those people at the temple, apparently did not vote for, like, or support President Donald Trump.

I saw screenshots of his social media page where Robert Bowers wrote this himself.

Neo-Nazis-even the ones in European countries and the ones in North America in the United States and Canada, who are all in extreme minorities and only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population even of small European countries, do not like Donald Trump because he likes Jews, completely supports Israel, has Jewish family members, and they feel he is too far left or a leftist/globalist.

Also, neo-nazis have always been around ever since the end of WW II, and are not some new phenomenon or coming out of the woodwork or having people join them-even in European countries or in North America.

I first saw evidence and actual neo-nazis in different European countries, and regions of Europe, and the United States and Canada in the late 1990s and very early 2000s during the Clinton years.




[Edited on 10/29/2018 by The_Newt]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83WsgVnIQ8k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e3T3VHmEkg

[Edited on 10/29/2018 by pops42]

That's the opinion of two people who are going off because they want media attention. T

These idiots do not represent all or most Americans or most people in Pennsylvania-even people who live in upstate PA near the NY border, and who are in Central Pennsylvania in and around Harrisburg. I do not like what they are saying and I do not agree with their hatred or support their bigotry at all but we have freedom of speech in the United States, and the people in the youtube video links you posted akin to the crazy, actually racist, and bigoted violent and hate filled people in far left groups like Antifa and black lives matter.

FYI, I am neither a con or lib and did not vote for Donald Trump or Hillary; but to me it is very silly how people falsely compare Trump to Hitler or claim he's "racist" or "Anti-Semitic", which actually just downplays actual racism, bigotry, and hatred.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/29/donald-trump-robert-bower s-racist-anti-semitic-synagogue-shooting-column/1800755002/

Accused Pittsburgh synagogue killer Robert Bowers is a raving anti-Semitic white nationalist who also despises President Donald Trump. This might sound confusing to people who bought into the tiresome “Trump is Hitler” media narrative, but it makes perfect sense.

But actual Nazis disagree. Bowers was explicit in his dislike of the president, saying he did not vote for him and had never “owned, worn or even touched" a Make America Great Again hat. Challenging the news media narrative that President Trump praised Nazi demonstrators in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017, Bowers agreed with another extremist that the president had “betrayed” right-wing radical protesters by “comparing them with a violent mob.”

When Trump said he was a “nationalist” at a Texas rally last week, the left exploded with the usual Hitler-this and dog-whistle-that criticisms. Bowers made clear that from the extremist point of view, the president is not a nationalist but a “globalist” controlled by a Jewish conspiracy.

Trump isn't anti-Semitic, and it's wrong to say so
Linking Trump to anti-Semitism is factually incorrect and morally wrong. You never heard it before he ran for office. He has a history of giving generously to Jewish charities, including the Anti-Defamation League, and he received the Jewish National Fund’s “Tree of Life” award.

This is a president whose high-profile daughter Ivanka is an observant modern Orthodox Jew and whose Jewish son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is a trusted White House envoy and personal adviser. President Trump also has longstanding ties to Israel’s conservative Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and, unlike three of his Oval Office predecessors, made good on a pledge to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

And while Trump did not garner support from the broad Jewish community in the 2016 election, he was overwhelmingly popular among more the observant Orthodox segment, whom one community activist compared to working-class “Rust Belt voters.”

Critics resort to the tired “dog whistle” trope to lump President Trump in with white nationalists because they lack actual evidence. But real extremists don’t hide their biases. You don’t need to use a secret decoder ring to understand the blatantly anti-Semitic message when Louis Farrakhan says Jews are “termites” and talks about “Satanic Jews who have infected the whole world with poison and deceit.” White supremacists praised Farrakhan for being “on point” with this message, showing the noxious nexus at which these conflicting racist ideologies agree.

Synagogue shooting shows what evil looks like
Political theorist Hannah Arendt noted in “The Origins of Totalitarianism” that extremist propaganda “is invariably as frank as it is mendacious,” and that “would-be totalitarian regimes usually start their careers by boasting of their past crimes and carefully outlining their future ones.” They believe in “the propaganda value of evil deeds,” as the tragedy in Pittsburgh and any other such acts of terrorism illustrate.

Mainstream critics who convert normal policy disagreements into mud-slinging contests over extremism, suggest apocalyptic consequences from pursuing any course of action they happen to disagree with, or hear hidden menacing messages in routine rhetoric, are making rational discourse in America impossible.

The synagogue shooting shows what real evil looks like. It is not hidden, it is not a subterfuge, it can be found openly expressed in chat rooms and online publications that cater to that wretched mob's mentality.

Mainstream Americans — whether leaning left, right or in the center — can and should denounce these radical views. But to the extent our political debate increasingly mimics the extremist tone of the fanatic fringes, we are the worse for it.


Jerry - 10/30/2018 at 07:57 PM

quote:
I find it so ironic that whenever their is a mass shooting the right screams that it is a mental health issue and not a gun issue, yet one of the first things that the GOP and Trump did after Trump took office was to pass a law making it easier for mentally ill people to buy guns.


Never happened, and you know it since we discussed this previously and you were proven wrong.

Plus, this is really the wrong place to push pro/anti gun feelings.

I feel for the victims and blame the killer.


Jerry - 10/30/2018 at 08:13 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The answer is always more guns.


In this Republic and the value we place on Liberty, that solution beats the Hell out of "We need more Laws"


quote:
The fall back is mental health.


I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue

quote:
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.


Let's see Switzerland has 8.7 million people and the USA has roughly 325 million......Factor in education, history, health and now tell me that was a relevant comparison.
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.


Fact: In the US, people who have been adjudged mentally ill are banned from purchasing firearms.
Fact: People in the US who have had a separation order for domestic violence (not even a conviction)
are banned from purchasing firearms.
Fact: Criminals are also banned from even being close to firearms, but, since they don't follow laws,
they not only get close, but use them to commit more crimes. More laws don't affect criminals,
but do affect law abiding people. More laws help the criminal.


2112 - 10/30/2018 at 08:30 PM

Fact - The ban on mentally ill people buying guns is only as good as the database. One of the first things Trump and the GOP congress did was to recind a law where the social security administration would be required to provide names of those receiving benefits for mental illness to the database.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/trump-nixed-gun-control-rule/


BoytonBrother - 10/30/2018 at 08:48 PM

quote:
Fact: In the US, people who have been adjudged mentally ill are banned from purchasing firearms.


But since the terrorist in Pittsburgh never saw a doctor, he purchased a gun and killed a dozen people. Therefore, mentally ill people CAN and DO buy guns.

quote:
Fact: Criminals are also banned from even being close to firearms, but, since they don't follow laws, they not only get close, but use them to commit more crimes.


Some probably do, sure.

quote:
More laws don't affect criminals, but do affect law abiding people. More laws help the criminal.


Possibly. But we will never know, because conservatives believe that more laws victimize them and their 2nd amendment right.




[Edited on 10/30/2018 by BoytonBrother]


BoytonBrother - 10/30/2018 at 08:52 PM

Regarding Trump, I think it’s silly to suggest that Trump committed any type of crime with his inflammatory rhetoric. But I don’t see that as the point. The point is whether a President should be escalating tensions and intentionally trying to divide. And that answer is obvious.


KCJimmy - 10/30/2018 at 08:56 PM

How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


BoytonBrother - 10/30/2018 at 09:16 PM

quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


For you? Not interested.





[Edited on 10/30/2018 by BoytonBrother]


BIGV - 10/30/2018 at 09:23 PM

quote:
And that answer is obvious.


To some, meaning it is far from "obvious".


pops42 - 10/30/2018 at 09:37 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The answer is always more guns.


In this Republic and the value we place on Liberty, that solution beats the Hell out of "We need more Laws"


quote:
The fall back is mental health.


I repeat, "Who in possession of a Healthy mind walks into any place where people have gathered and begins randomly killing, be it with a gun or a bomb"?

It is absolutely a Mental Health issue

quote:
Bullsh!t. in switzerland, people love their guns, but have strict laws on who can have them, the result??? hardly any gun massacres.


Let's see Switzerland has 8.7 million people and the USA has roughly 325 million......Factor in education, history, health and now tell me that was a relevant comparison.
So you believe because there are a lot less people there, their approach means nothing?, I don't think so. They don't allow the ment ally ill to access firearms, or those who are wife beating pieces of sh!t and have violent tendencies, no guns for you. I'm sure no matter what the population is there, the result would be the same.


If someone really wants to get a gun in Switzerland, or in any other European country, they easily can on the black market there or in any number of nearby European countries.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20180614/swiss-police-logistics-chief-suspected-of- illegal-arms-sales

In comparison to other European countries, Switzerland has a high rate of death from guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_ra te

Also, while many people think that various European countries must be very liberal/leftist because they have decriminalized/legalized prostitution and decriminalized/legalized/socially tolerated soft drugs like hash and weed, and Psilocybin mushrooms, the governments and people of these countries are actually rather conservative politically and socially.

Neo-Nazi and extremely far right nationalist-neo-fascist political groups, and social attitudes are also very popular in Switzerland, and gaining popularity especially among younger people, and older people as well in many other European countries. However, this should not be a surprise to anyone as it's been this way for decades. No this does not mean that most people in these countries are neo-nazis, support neo-nazi groups, etc. It's like here in the United States where there's a very tiny percentage of the population that consists of neo-nazis.

[Edited on 10/30/2018 by The_Newt]

[Edited on 10/30/2018 by The_Newt]
Check out my post of Malcolm Nance, I think you may find it interesting.


KCJimmy - 10/30/2018 at 09:39 PM

quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


For you? Not interested.

[Edited on 10/30/2018 by BoytonBrother]
Wisdom prevails - I'm flattered


lukester420 - 10/30/2018 at 09:48 PM

quote:
quote:
And that answer is obvious.


To some, meaning it is far from "obvious".



MartinD28 - 10/30/2018 at 10:34 PM

quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


BIGV - 10/30/2018 at 10:59 PM

quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


sckeys - 10/30/2018 at 11:07 PM

quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


Democrat’s are evil people.


MartinD28 - 10/30/2018 at 11:10 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


BIGV - 10/30/2018 at 11:21 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


jkeller - 10/30/2018 at 11:29 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


BIGV - 10/30/2018 at 11:41 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


Jesus has spoken


BrerRabbit - 10/30/2018 at 11:45 PM

quote:
This is sickening as an American and a Jew. The FBI has confirmed what I already suspected, there are more hate crimes against Jews than any other religious group. And, they are increasing
As all of the xenophobia has been unfolding since January '17, I always said that we would be next. We are. It's here.


I agree and just real sorry to see this even coming up in conversation in the 21st century. Disturbing that you even got to where you had to consider it. Sure, nothing new it is a chronic social undercurrent, standard ignorance bilge in the hold of history - really just sucks that it is getting revived rather than continuing to fade. These ideas are baggage from the middle ages.


jkeller - 10/31/2018 at 12:00 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


Jesus has spoken


Yes, and he agrees with me.


MartinD28 - 10/31/2018 at 12:30 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
How about some examples of Trump "intentionally trying to divide"?


How about some examples of Trump trying to unite whites, blacks, those on the left & right, male, female, straight, gay, immigrants, etc.


Seems to be a stalemate or more simply, opposing views with no common ground.


So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


Actually when I asked the original question, I was expecting a one word answer - "uniter" or "divider". It's that basic & doesn't need a qualifier.


BIGV - 10/31/2018 at 01:37 AM

quote:
So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


Actually when I asked the original question, I was expecting a one word answer - "uniter" or "divider". It's that basic & doesn't need a qualifier.


I think it does because of the polarizing effects of his being Elected. For example, Mr. Keller mentioned immigration. I would ask but feel like assuming here will be just as effective.

"Do we need immigration reform (Left) or immigration enforcement(Right)"?

Which route satisfies both the Left and the Right?

Not easy is it?...Both sides are looking to the other to give ground. I repeat, stalemate and that is just one issue.


jkeller - 10/31/2018 at 04:14 AM

quote:
quote:
So when you listen to & observe Trump, would you classify him more a president who unites or divides?


I think he "unites" the people who believe in him and those who revile him will not be moved, thus, a Stalemate with both sides equally to blame.


By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.


Actually when I asked the original question, I was expecting a one word answer - "uniter" or "divider". It's that basic & doesn't need a qualifier.


I think it does because of the polarizing effects of his being Elected. For example, Mr. Keller mentioned immigration. I would ask but feel like assuming here will be just as effective.

"Do we need immigration reform (Left) or immigration enforcement(Right)"?

Which route satisfies both the Left and the Right?

Not easy is it?...Both sides are looking to the other to give ground. I repeat, stalemate and that is just one issue.



Congress worked on a bilateral immigration law, but Trump said he would not sign it as written. An attempt to come up with a law that would meet Trump's approval failed in the House.

So, the left and the right had an agreement, but the "unifier" president rejected it. Adding that to the other things I mentioned makes my point. Trump is divisive and he uses it as a weapon.


sckeys - 10/31/2018 at 04:33 AM

It’s a good thing there wasn’t a rally so he could make it to Pitt.


gina - 10/31/2018 at 03:59 PM

quote:
Neo nazi trump supporters at work.


More likely the mk ultra deep state people trying to desensitize people to mass shootings so that when the economy collapses and they want to impose martial law people will get used to others being shot and whatever narrative they come up with to justify it will be acceptable. But ultimately they will NOT win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBehB0Ykhys

[Edited on 10/31/2018 by gina]


Bhawk - 10/31/2018 at 09:03 PM

quote:
More likely the mk ultra deep state people trying to desensitize people to mass shootings so that when the economy collapses and they want to impose martial law people will get used to others being shot and whatever narrative they come up with to justify it will be acceptable.


That's definitely it.


2112 - 10/31/2018 at 10:18 PM

quote:
quote:
More likely the mk ultra deep state people trying to desensitize people to mass shootings so that when the economy collapses and they want to impose martial law people will get used to others being shot and whatever narrative they come up with to justify it will be acceptable.


That's definitely it.


Wow, that makes so much more sense than a neo-nazi shooting up a synagogue due to being an ignorant ahole. Thank you for that brilliant insight Gina! I feel so much more tin foilish now.


gina - 10/31/2018 at 10:26 PM

The neo nazis have their own agenda. As does any extremist group who feels that their group is the only way and the right way. God's way is that people are tolerant of each other and other religions, this was even decreed in the Quran.

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."

Chapter Al Baqarah (The Cow) 2:62





KCJimmy - 11/2/2018 at 09:38 PM

quote:
By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.
The press deserve to be called out for their extremely biased reporting and the Dems for their despicable stunts (Kavenaugh hearings for example). Neither of those groups know how to respond because NO ONE HAS EVER called them out in such a way as Trump has. And it has been VERY effective. The other "groups" you refer to are not citizens of this country. And no the Dems don't have anyone who acts like Trump. But they do have Maxine Waters. They Have Eric Holder encouraging violence & Hillary suggesting people refuse to be civil until they get their power back? Obama says get in their faces. Hmmm Their is not a single politician on the right who acts like that.

Trump truly wants this country to prosper, everyone. What is wrong with that? Try The RED PILL!


lukester420 - 11/3/2018 at 04:47 AM

quote:
quote:
By singling out immigrants, ethnic groups, the press, Democrats and others, he is making no attempt to unify the country. You are either on the Trump Train or you are the enemy. There is no grey area. There is not a single politician on the left who acts like that.
The press deserve to be called out for their extremely biased reporting and the Dems for their despicable stunts (Kavenaugh hearings for example). Neither of those groups know how to respond because NO ONE HAS EVER called them out in such a way as Trump has. And it has been VERY effective. The other "groups" you refer to are not citizens of this country. And no the Dems don't have anyone who acts like Trump. But they do have Maxine Waters. They Have Eric Holder encouraging violence & Hillary suggesting people refuse to be civil until they get their power back? Obama says get in their faces. Hmmm Their is not a single politician on the right who acts like that.

Trump truly wants this country to prosper, everyone. What is wrong with that? Try The RED PILL!


If you believe that you are powerfully gullible, Trump wants Trump to prosper, that has been his MO his whole life. Since when did getting bullied by Russia equate to prosperity


Jerry - 11/5/2018 at 04:17 AM

My prayers go out to the survivors during their time of grief.


gina - 11/7/2018 at 10:05 PM

People do not seem to realize or learn that these mass shootings do not change anything except killing people who may be innocent of whatever someone is pissed off about. Even in this case, all Jews are not infidels or incorrectly following the guidance given to them.

This my God's better than your God idea is totally wrong because there is only ONE God for all people.


BrerRabbit - 11/7/2018 at 10:32 PM

quote:
Even in this case, all Jews are not infidels or incorrectly following the guidance given to them.


Next time someone shoots up a synagogue, they really ought to check with you and ask your opinion first, to make sure they are wasting infidels and not innocents.


gina - 11/8/2018 at 09:57 PM

That's one of the important points, killing even one Innocent who may be among a group of corrupt people is like killnig all of humanity according to Islam, therefore you cannot judge a group of people you do not know and decide to kill them for their beliefs because you do not know what their individual beliefs are.


BrerRabbit - 11/8/2018 at 11:32 PM

quote:
. . .you cannot judge a group of people you do not know and decide to kill them for their beliefs because you do not know what their individual beliefs are.


Ok. I get it, thanks. You are saying it is fine to kill folks for beliefs you think are bad, but not if it is a group and there might be someone among them with beliefs you think are good. Probably best to just go after them one at a time, make certain their beliefs are killworthy so Allah is happy with your killing.





[Edited on 11/9/2018 by BrerRabbit]


gina - 11/14/2018 at 11:42 PM

quote:
quote:
. . .you cannot judge a group of people you do not know and decide to kill them for their beliefs because you do not know what their individual beliefs are.


Ok. I get it, thanks. You are saying it is fine to kill folks for beliefs you think are bad, but not if it is a group and there might be someone among them with beliefs you think are good. Probably best to just go after them one at a time, make certain their beliefs are killworthy so Allah is happy with your killing.


I DID NOT say that it was okay to kill anyone. Though I do believe people have a right to defend their own personal selves, their property, their family and their religion. On defending their religion if a group comes to blow up your place of worship or shoot you there, you have a right to shoot back to defend it, those most religions including Islam say that there should be no fighting near a masjid (house of worship). This issue came up when the Pakistani Taliban bombed (more than once) a masjid where the local army, Frontier Corps were in there praying. Their justification was, well they are praying that they will be able to kill us when they come out, so why shouldn't we stop them when we are rightly guided and they are not. My opinion on that was the Quran forbids attacking people at the masjid, and even though they may be wrongly guided killing them there takes away the possibility of their repentence later on. If someone is in there praying and someone attacks you there, then you have a right to defend yourself and whoever else is there with you, but you cannot go and blow up masjids just because your enemy happens to be in there.

It is no different with a synagogue. You cannot just go there and say you want to kill everyone there because your religion is different than theirs. The prophet of Islam even allowed Christians to pray in a masjid in Arabia, while they were travelling on their way to what is now called Yemen. What he did was send his best scholar back to Yemen with them and converted the entire country to Islam. That is the correct teaching, not killing people at their places of worship. The person sent to Yemen was Abu Ubaida ibn al Jarrah). That is how Yemen became a Muslim country.







BrerRabbit - 11/15/2018 at 01:15 AM

quote:
What he did was send his best scholar back to Yemen with them and converted the entire country to Islam. That is the correct teaching, not killing people at their places of worship.


Ok, it would be interesting to know what Islam Plan B is when Plan A conversion fails.


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